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Trouble engaging gears

6K views 58 replies 24 participants last post by  ashy90 
#1 ·
HI ALL,
having trouble getting my zs 180 into gear, it only does it when been driven for a while and the engine is hot, works good as gold when its cold,i have checked gear oil and clutch fluid all are ok. have any of you guys come accross this prob? not good thing to be doing when you cant get it in gear at trafficlights,
 
#2 ·
Is this something that's recently developed? Cause difficult gearchange is an endemic problem with these models, including mine. Can't say I've noticed any correlation with engine temperature. It's a bit random. Some days gears engage easier than others. And it's always been like this, since I bought the car 20K ago.
 
#3 ·
Is your clutch behaving as it should? - the hydraulics are a well known weak spot in the ZS180.

If you have to push it to the floor to get it to engage and it's "in" by about 1/2 " off the floor the hydraulics are shot.

If so, look up "Sheddist clutch kit" on here.
 
#10 ·
Dear All

Sounds like mine is the other way around - stiff/notchy when engine (and threfore presumably oil) is cold, say first 30 minutes of use in a morning.

I have the sheddist clutch kit fitted (maybe 3-4 years ago now) and was wondering if something might need adjusting/replacing.

Sometimes gears can be a bit difficult, but noticeably worse in last few weeks hence posting here.

Any views/thoughts much appreciated!

Cheers

Andrew
 
#11 ·
Dear All

Sounds like mine is the other way around - stiff/notchy when engine (and threfore presumably oil) is cold, say first 30 minutes of use in a morning.
The initial notchiness might have more to do with the choke pushing the revs up and making it more difficult to engage gear. I think that's normal for most cars. But perhaps not for as long as 30 minutes.
 
#12 ·
Worth thinking about having gear oil changed, or at least checked for levels.

Clutch hydraulics can cause all sorts of issues, it depends how they are failing, fast idle should not affect gear change as you will be removing drive to the input shaft by disengaging clutch, good synchros will be able to cope easily.

If the synchros are worn (possible) that will affect the change but my first thought would be to drop gear oil out and have a look at it.

Only use MTF94 in the PG1.

Low oil levels can cause some issues with gearbox.
 
#17 ·
I had a problem similar to this, all be it on my rover 25. Exactly what you describe though, not going into gear at lights etc. Having to pump clutch more than once to get it to go in?

I changed my transmission oil from whatever was in it, to Castrol EPX stuff, and its been much better since. There was a bunch of filings on the drain bolt, which were removed. However you did say the oil was fine, have you changed it or just topped it up/checked it?

The oil i used can be seen on this post of my blog - 67000/68000 Mile Service
 
#18 ·
Mine went the same last week,cant engage 1st gear,and all the rest where very notchy and difficult to engage,reverse asswell!! Spent yesterday replacing the clutch master and slave cylinder with new replacement parts.This has made little difference to the change..the only thing left to do now is replace the clutch plate ,as its obviously not the hydraulics!! The cars just over 90K miles so I think its gonner need one.Got it booked in at a Clutch/Gearbox centre not to far from home for Monday,Theyve quoted me a price of £225 for a clutch kit supplied and fitted.Im happy with the price..will keep you posted what happens next!!!
 
#20 ·
hi folks i had the same prob the other night,was slowing down at the traffic lights,and it took me 4 attempts to get into 2nd,ive got a spare slave was going to fit it but it seems it has extended right out,so i didnt bother replacing it,do you guys think the slave is knackered,by the way ive just joined from the mgzs,co,uk site
 
#22 ·
Join a growing club. Mine since 18K when I bought it. 44K now. Hasn't got any worse. Just an intermittent problem that I can live with for now because I don't do a lot of mileage. I've always fancied doing a track day but no chance. I'd be spinning off the track struggling to change down going into corners.
 
#23 ·
Sorry to bring this old thread up.

There are a few similar threads dotted around but in no cases did anyone come back to say if and how they fixed the problem.

I think there are 2 or more separate problems being described in this and other similar threads, one being related to the factory hydraulics and the other relating to another problem - such as the one I'm experiencing.

I've had my ZS 180 from new and spend around an hour and a half to 2 hours a day in heavy traffic.

From around 30,000 miles, when the car is hot and having been in heavy traffic for over 45 minutes it becomes very difficult to engage first gear, particularly when the weather is hot. If the car is slowly rolling forwards it will slot in, but if the car is stationary it can be very difficult and on occasion I've had to pull away in second.

As someone above said, it feels like something is bending because the biting point also gets slightly lower as the car gets hotter. Because of this I fitted a sheddist kit. It certainly helped with keeping the biting point at the right level but the problems with engaging first gear when hot after heavy traffic remained.

So, next job was the gearbox oil.

After changing the box oil (mid summer too), the problem appeared to improve drastically. Definitely still a lack of smoothness in hot temperatures but for around 3 Months afterwards it always slotted into first without difficulty.

But the problem has since come back.

In all cases I'm pretty certain the clutch is fully disengaging when the pedal is depressed. There are definitely no signs to suggest it isn't.

When the problem is at it's worst, if I hold the gear lever at the resistance point for 1st gear, and then switch the engine off, it will then slot straight in.

So, in conclusion, difficulty engaging first only happens when the both the outside temperature and the engine/box is hot after sitting in heavy traffic with the engine running, and the closest I've had to fixing the problem was for a short period of time following the gearbox oil change.

I don't think this is related but will mention it in case a bright spark can link it, but the car has had severe clutch judder from brand new, but only from cold and only lasting the first 2 or 3 pull away's. After the 3rd pull away the problem disappears. My car didn't have a warranty when new so it wasn't something i ever got sorted out.

Car is now on 52,000 miles.

My conclusion for the problem engaging first gear is worn synchromesh and this is certainly the conclusion I would have if presented with the problem on any other car, but the fact that there are multiple known clutch/gear change problems on the 180 has me questioning what the true answer is.

Any gearbox specialists on the forum that can say with almost certainty "Yes, the problem you describe sounds like X"?

Many thanks in advance.
 
#24 ·
i had the same problems as you... i fitted the sheddist kit aswell and ive only just had it solved...

basically the steps that i did was oil change, there was a leak on the master cylinder which wasnt helping but was replaced by sheddist,biting point was too low on hydraulics which didnt help either.

in the few months after i took my car to rally matt and had quaiffe installed while it was there he looked at it all for me and my clutch was shot,and needed gear synchro rings replacing, he also did something else with hydrolics which just transformed the clutch pedal, i will get in touch with him and ask him what he did ... but since all that was replaced it was like a dream hope this helps will post again once matt has been in touch.

cheers luke.
 
#27 ·
Thanks for the reply cutler12 and for your effort to contact someone for confirmation.

The bleeding and clevis adjustment are things I've already done.

You said you had new synchro rings fitted, I take it you no longer had the problem after this was done?

Keosk,

Knowing a few people who worked on the production lines, I don't think all of them really cared. Morale was pretty low by the time the Mk2's were being knocked out.

But still, most of the parts fitted to our cars had been around for years and had proven themselves as reasonably good components, but I guess part of the problem is the combination of those parts when used on our cars, and changing suppliers who are can manufacture some of those components cheaper. I guess for the Mk2's at least, the problems didn't arise until it was too late.
 
#28 ·
Not possible to just suggest 1 thing and hope its right withough looking at things properly and that will mean box out and probably stripping it down.

There are a few issues it could be,

worn clutch or damaged flywheel (high spotting from the juddering earlier in cars life) Luke's flywheel was pretty marked from the clutch issues it had earlier due to hydraulics, its in the skip now!

There is also a strong possibility that the sychro rings have been damaged as a result of poor hydraulics.

Lots of people incorrectly adjust the sheddist kit, you need to make sure you are getting full clearance not level pedals. Also make sure its thoroughly bled through.

Did you use the correct gear oil? MTF94 is the only oil that should go in this box.

Worn gear linkage, its not a brilliant set up and slight wear can result in a very sloppy change.

Holding the gearstick after changing gear is probably the worst thing you can do with a manual box, it keeps pressure on the selectors and parts do not run in their natural position, just a tip :)

It could be a worn location hole in the interlock baseplate, seen a couple like that.

The clutch dosn't need to be slipping to be damaged. If the cover fingers are damaged that will severely reduce clutch clearance.

Time to bite the bullet and box out and see whats what if you want to get to the bottom of it.
 
#29 ·
Thanks for the detailed reply Rally Matt.

In response...

Correct gear oil was used.

Flywheel issues certainly could be the cause of the judder, but as I'm pretty sure the clutch is fully disengaging when the pedal is depressed, I don't think this is related to the difficulty getting into 1st when hot.

Worn location hole - Can't prove either way, but i'd consider my driving style one that doesn't cause excessive wear on clutch/box components, even on my race car I've never damaged a clutch or box, bushes are the things I go through a lot of! However, clutch judder could be a contributory factor here so it remains a possibility.

Worn gear linkage - Although not as tight as it was when new, I'd rule this one out because gear changes are smooth and precise when the car is cold and when the engine is switched off.

Cover fingers - Could be worn, but again, I'd expect some kind of drag when changing gear. The issue is only with first gear. If cover fingers were worn/damaged then I'd expect some kind of tell tale sign with other gears at certain speeds, and there are none. i.e, it wont slot into first from stand still when car is very hot, but it will slot straight into 2nd. Cover fingers may be a contributory factor to the judder though.

So, based on your own detailed response, I think again, the finger is pointing towards synchro issues.

I may try an alternative gear box oil before considering changing the box. Not sure what yet, I'd need to read up on it and find something that may improve the problem.

When I eventually come to changing the clutch (if I ever do), I'll probably get a recon box and switch the box at the same time. That will most probably cure the problem, but unfortunately it will never give absolute certainty as to whether the problem was actually with the gearbox or the clutch. It does seem likely that we have synchromesh issues here though.

So, the next question to help confirm that, is a worn synchromesh more apparent at higher temperatures?

If temperature makes absolutely no difference to the function of a synchro, that leaves more questions unanswered, if it does, then I'm pretty sure we've established the most likely cause.
 
#30 ·
You are really just second guessing until you pull the gearbox out.

Personally I would always reccomend rebuilding the gearbox you have. Better the devil you know!

Changing to another gear oil will be a bad move.

Doesnt matter if you are very kind to your gearbox, if there are any faults in the drivetrain they can have serious knock on effects on other components.

High spotting on the flywheel is not something you can feel but will have sufficent drag on the clutch to cause excess wear on the synchro rings.

Temperature does affect transmissions, but not always easy to pin point which component, usually clutch is more high temp dependent but depending on the nature of the wear on the synchro teeth the baulk rings can also be very badly affected
 
#33 ·
Thanks again for the further reply.

If and when I take the box out (could be anytime, Weeks, Months, Years etc) I'll update this thread with the findings.

I'll try to get some photos of the flywheel. I've not stripped one of these boxes before so will probably have someone else do it, and again, I'll update with the findings.

Thanks again.
 
#36 · (Edited)
The clutch and box suffer as Matt said. The test for clutch drag is pretty easy if you have access to a trolley jack and a helper. First thing is put the jack under the front lift point. Lift the front just high enough to get the wheels clear of the ground then firmly apply the handbrake and chock the rear wheels. Now for the slightly dodgy bit. Start the engine put the clutch pedal to the floor and engage 1st gear leaving the engine at idle. Get a helper to see if the wheels are turning? If the clutch is working as it should the wheels should be stationary or turn very slowly. If the foot brake is applied the wheels will stop but if the clutch is dragging the engine will be pushing them to turn again and this should make a slight change in engine note. I'v used this technique many times but if you do use it then be careful and of course it's at your own risk!!
 
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