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Discussion Starter #1
Does anyone know where i can get a mgzr s2000 body kit from.. I know rally tech make them for bill gwynne motorsport.. but they are very expensive!!!
 

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I'm pretty sure that you'll only really be able to get the body panels from Rallytech or Bill Gwynne Motorsport. The latter company have taken over the car from Motor Sport Developments (MSD) who were the company that initially designed the car.

One option to try would be to ask BGMSport as Bill Gwynne Motorsport are now known if they have any damaged panels that might be repairable? OK, it'll involve a little more work for yourself, but it also might just save you some money if they do have some damaged panels that haven't been skipped yet.

BGMSport are advertising an MG S2000 SPORT on www.rallycarsforsale.net but here is a link to the article on www.mgs2000.co.uk along with a telephone number for BGMSport > http://mgs2000.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=356

Good luck in recreating something like this...

 

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I'm pretty sure that you'll only really be able to get the body panels from Rallytech or Bill Gwynne Motorsport. The latter company have taken over the car from Motor Sport Developments (MSD) who were the company that initially designed the car.

One option to try would be to ask BGMSport as Bill Gwynne Motorsport are now known if they have any damaged panels that might be repairable? OK, it'll involve a little more work for yourself, but it also might just save you some money if they do have some damaged panels that haven't been skipped yet.

BGMSport are advertising an MG S2000 SPORT on www.rallycarsforsale.net but here is a link to the article on www.mgs2000.co.uk along with a telephone number for BGMSport > http://mgs2000.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=356

Good luck in recreating something like this...

Wow!! Stunning bit of kit!!!
Almost as stunning as the price

£170k!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #6
no i was thinking more on the lines of a super1400, but when BGMsport wants around £4000+ for the kit ill have to reconsider lol
 

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Hi Loon....Is this some kind of "wet dream" or have you changed your plans??

You were talking about Rally First serie in BTRDA ( good choise, very economic serie, a possibility to learn basic car control, everyone is having same kind of tyres). In Rally First class you cant change anything in your ZR body.
The only modification is that you can fold the inner lips of wheel arches. After safety equipments only real modifications are free suspension and free choise of wheels.

Even if you can have free S2000 body panels your car will look pathetic havin narrow Rover rear ( and front-) axle. Did you know that S2000 do have 150 mm wider track than ZR 105?
How much might cost one-piece only special wide independent rear axle?
What about widening front axle???:twak2:

A piece of advice from experienced older clubman; Please, focus on the most important areas in your rally car building. Meaning parts which will make car control much easier making car also much faster.:racer:

Invest all your money to the suspension. BOS, Reiger, Öhlins, Proflex, Tein, Bilstein. Then buy some sets of reasonable alu- rally wheels with ET 35 mm.
( I use Opel Astra wheels from Revolution). Fold inner lips from all wheel arches. Disconnect servo unit, buy proper rally brake pads, Ferrodo DS 3000 of DS2.11 ( WRC pad)Carbone Lorraine RC8, Pagid SR8 or Hawk DTC-60.
Add some good brake fluid, and have a go.....

Snowy Senior

PS. You`ll have to use brake shields in rear axle, otherwise there will not be heath enough for proper bite.
 

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Snowy is right. The S2000 is a fabulous looking piece of kit, and every Rally driver wants a car that looks and goes like this, but let me share a harsh lesson that I have had this year. I rallied a Group N 1400 ZR last season, an ex works scholarship car, standard box with 5.1 final drive and ATB diff. Not once did it ever break down, or miss a beat, and it gave me loads of fun and a few class podiums, more by reliability than speed, but a pot is a pot!

I should have put a decent box in her and carried on, but I knew better. I sold her, and bought an all singing and dancing 106, wide track, mega 1400 engine and box etc etc. In every rally I have done this year, I have led the class by miles, but how many have I actually won? answer........none......not one single finish. The bills have mounted up, and I have been out of the sport for a few months now, as the budget is spent fixing the car.

£4000 is way too much to spend on a bodykit, but that is small change compared to the rest. Darren Pinchens S1400 Proton engine was £15,000 plus, The 2 ZRs of Callum Black and Matt Edwards, running at the front of the BTRDA cost in the region of £45,000 to put together, and have Suzuki S1600 running gear, front and back. It is crazy money, but fine if you can afford it!

Stay standard, go rally first/MGZR challenge, enjoy the car and do as many events as you can. If a part breaks, go to a scrappy and get a new part. When I had the ZR, I bought a complete running R25 for £200, so I had a spare everything. Bitter experience has now taught me that as soon as you start modifying a car, you start breaking it. Unless you have a truly MASSIVE budget, keep it standard!

I shall be back next year.....in a ZR, probably an 1800 Group N, with top suspension, because thats all you need, and instead of sitting on here, frustrated as hell, I will be out doing events!

Hope it helps!
 

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Snowy is right. The S2000 is a fabulous looking piece of kit, and every Rally driver wants a car that looks and goes like this, but let me share a harsh lesson that I have had this year. I rallied a Group N 1400 ZR last season, an ex works scholarship car, standard box with 5.1 final drive and ATB diff. Not once did it ever break down, or miss a beat, and it gave me loads of fun and a few class podiums, more by reliability than speed, but a pot is a pot!

I should have put a decent box in her and carried on, but I knew better. I sold her, and bought an all singing and dancing 106, wide track, mega 1400 engine and box etc etc. In every rally I have done this year, I have led the class by miles, but how many have I actually won? answer........none......not one single finish. The bills have mounted up, and I have been out of the sport for a few months now, as the budget is spent fixing the car.

£4000 is way too much to spend on a bodykit, but that is small change compared to the rest. Darren Pinchens S1400 Proton engine was £15,000 plus, The 2 ZRs of Callum Black and Matt Edwards, running at the front of the BTRDA cost in the region of £45,000 to put together, and have Suzuki S1600 running gear, front and back. It is crazy money, but fine if you can afford it!

Stay standard, go rally first/MGZR challenge, enjoy the car and do as many events as you can. If a part breaks, go to a scrappy and get a new part. When I had the ZR, I bought a complete running R25 for £200, so I had a spare everything. Bitter experience has now taught me that as soon as you start modifying a car, you start breaking it. Unless you have a truly MASSIVE budget, keep it standard!

I shall be back next year.....in a ZR, probably an 1800 Group N, with top suspension, because thats all you need, and instead of sitting on here, frustrated as hell, I will be out doing events!

Hope it helps!
Good advice this. We had a Group A Harry Hockley Astra and a Group N Astra at the same time a few years back (both MK3's). The better results were in the GPN car as the kit car never finished without problems. No enjoyment there at all having a car that on paper can be a top 2WD contender, but is plagued with DNF's.

Unless there are works team budgets/facilities involved, then rallying kit cars is difficult.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
the kit was an idea for a future project and was never intended to be put on our rally car but thanks anyway for the advice

Regards Ben
 

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Hi Royal, excellent comment from a man who have done it both ways.
I drove 35 rallies with kit car engined Micra. Very fast, but very expensive to build and service proper way. Gearbox 10 k and the engine over 10k. Driveshafts and joints had to replace after 3 rallies, conrod bearings and pistonrings after 450 stage miles just to mention few jobs. Near 400 hours / season in the garage if I wanted to see the finish line of those rallies.
Because a lot of work and money I did retire only 3 times for mechanical reason, forced to be the second in class 3 times and 29 class wins.

I sold it because it was too much work, too expensive ( 20000 £/ ) seasons,
too narrow and too short car. Horrible when gravel came rough and bumpy after 50 Evos.:hammerhea

MG ZR is excellent car to drive in forest compared to most of its rivals in 1400 class no matter if its a kit car or not. If std is not enough, instead of fancy plastic pits I would use that 4000 £ for a really good gear set with Gripper diff. Then I would spend another 4000 for long travel rally suspension and Powerflex poly bush set. A home made rally exhaust system and a visit to Rally Matt and his "ecu" friend for a proper MEMS reprogramming, and thats it.

With that kind of modification you can drive thousands of stage miles, and a handy driver can do circles around most of his rivals, even in S14 class.

If the money is object to new gear set, Rally Matt might sell soon one Quaife close ratio with ATB diff because his having one of mine now.
 

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Think you are right Snowy, although I do not do too much in the forest and tend to compete mainly in Belgium, which throws up its own set of problems suspension wise. So far, I have found that a more forest orientated set up works on the bumpy roads than an outright tarmac set up.

Once I can offload the 106, then I will be looking for another ZR. The noise of a highly tuned engine howling away under your right foot is very addictive though........but so is competing on as many rallies as possible.......and finishing them!

I have been looking with interest at the shocks you have developed, another thing that a beginner can get "bogged down" with. A good non adjustable set up can allow the driver to just get on and learn his technique, without spending days and days of expensive testing, trying to figure out a 3 way system, often going in totally the wrong direction, leading to frustration and a very poor handling car, and still not understanding why.

I am interested in what you say about the Micra getting horrible on the bumps. I watched the Dukeries Rally half way down a very fast and bumpy straight, and whilst most of the ZRs looked fairly stable down there, the Micras amazed me with how well they covered the ground without once looking uncomfortable.
 

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Hi, I had to spend last evening whatching Dukeries rally clips to see how bumby rally it is. No wonder Micras did well, for me it is " a Flat Land", like driving on the table, as we say. So smooth, so straight stages.
One bump for a little FWD is not a big deal. In here big problem are small sharp douple bumps. Your rear hit the first, then fly against the other and unpredictably rear end is half a meter off the road surface. Cant steer it, can you.

I`m a clubman who is paying all bills, that is why I use Bilstein. Three championships with it. Might be a bit quicker with ten times more expensive Reiger, but....
During a rally, on tarmac or on gravel or snow the most important thing is to keep wheels against road surface as long as possible. That is why we are capable to win more powerful machines. the longer suspension travel is , the better. In my set up wheels are moving more down than up.

Last October I did some laps around Ahvenisto Race Track during running-in period of my new dog gear set. Spring stiffnes depends how much grip tyres can offer, for std ZR road tyres my gravel supension was quite near ideal one. For proper tarmac rally tyres I would propably try one step stiffer main spring, still std roll bar and thats it.

I do share your feelings about driving high screaming FWD rally car. This ZR is absolutely my last rally car ever, thats why I`m building a "monster engine" for it. Do I really need all that power... no, not necessary, but one more time I would like to have that feeling. It is more exciting than ......you know what..:dunno:

To get some feeling for our stages here is one good examble. The quality of film is not good, but....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AF1LDDR_2Os

The car is FWD Rs 2000, std engine+ our dog gear set in MTX75 casing. The driver is B-junior, not much experience at that time. Anyway..after seen how much tightening bends over crests we do have, it easier to understand why the balance of suspension is so critical. When spring rates are too high, shock valving is also too stiff and going over those crests it is so easy to loose the control of the car.:driving:
 

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Blimey, that is some stage! All those blind crests look fun! Do you ever get into 5th on these stages?

Dukeries......try this video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xps-DtIafjw
2nd stage, from about 3 mins in. This I think is a classic example of what you have been saying about most cars in British forests having too stiff a set up!

Bilstein do not seem to market in the UK for rallying any more. Most of the ZRs in the BTRDA are still using Leda, but since they changed owners, there is a feeling that the quality is not there now, and AVO seem to be the "in thing" to have. I had AVO for the last part of last season (in the forest) but I never got to a stage where I felt totally happy with them.

I actually tried GAZ for a couple of tarmac events, and they felt really good, but I did not think they would survive a rough forest rally.

Its a minefield!!
 

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Thats famous 1000 Lakes stage from early days., called Marjoniemi about 50 miles from here. Time has gone and for my F-cup serie it`s shortened a lot because the village has grown up. But still excellent examble to show the nature of Finnish stages. No "flat land" at all. In F-cup we are driving it "blind", as you see, no practise, no pace notes, just nail it. It is a mans job....:driving:

Because lack of experience this young driver is using mostly 3rd gear. 5 times he goes down to 2nd, and three times up to 5th. A bit difficult to count all gearchanges, specially going down, because our dog set is silk smooth.
With ZR it`s most of time by 4th, once to 2nd, about 10 times to 3rd and 8 times up to 5th. We had once a county training stage in there, I did love every minute of it.

I have driven twice in Longross , Carfax Rally. During MG Live I drove three long days on rally track of Silverstone so I have some experience about Ledas and ATB diff.

When Bilstein got out of WRC rallies, sales companies in most countries lost all interest ( and skills) to build rally shocks. In here we have a good situation. 20 years ago Timo specialised for competition shocks only, he got a change to buy just parts from Germany and started to build all in house. If needed he can have some help for testing from ex Citroen Rally Team test driver, Juuso Pykälistö. That will mean that a privater can have a set ready for driving. That is why I have been his customer near 20 years now. And the best thing is that my type of suspension is not really so expensive.
 

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I will take some more pictures from my suspension and they can be found from gallery a little later to day. Also a private message about the price.

I have to confess that all rally stages are not so kinky in Finland as that one I did show before. This is good average stage from my home Finnish Open Championship Rally. We use these stages also at winter time every second year in a Valkeala Winter Rally which my own club organize. To make some change I use this time a real top driver;http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmjxI7g9z1k

Enjoy it, and you know why we dont use Avo or Leda suspension when there is some speed......
 

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I am not planning on selling our Quaife Gear sets, we will keep for spares but we can supply new Quiafe parts or you can buy the proper dog gear box we are selling from Devil Gears in Finland. Hopefully we should have a demo day in the near future.

Spend you money on the best suspension, Rally Systems set up using Bilstein components from Finland like Jorma's with Eibach ERS progressive springs.

S2000 looks great but pointless on anything less than a S2000 car. ZR is already wide for its class, thats why the S1600 car didn't have any extra wide track parts.

Save you money and buy the best parts for what you have and start winning. ;-)))
 

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Tony Gardemaister is a top top driver, that video is quality. The car control there is just superb, and very little lifting!

Doing the rallies blind is something I grew up with, this kind of event is now long gone and we purchase "route notes" which are available in the way you want them, either numbers or descriptions. There is a big debate on the British Rally forum about whether they are a good idea or not. It seems that the oldies like myself want to go back to "blind" with the co driver using a map, and the younger generation wanting to keep the pacenotes. On neither system are we allowed to recce.

Blind rallies do not seem to do the Finns any harm, look how many great drivers you have from past and present, although we have a Rally crash programme on TV here called "Out of Control" which seems to be mainly from Finland! It amazes me how some of the drivers have total faith that they can go into any corner, totally flat out, and get round!

Bilstein is what I grew up with, in the days of rallying a Lada, a superb shock, and still used by the many Historic Escorts in Britain, and once I come back to a ZR, is something I would want to look at too. Rally loon, it would make huge sense, as you can fit, and then just concentrate on going for it, instead of spending so much time, as I did, trying to work out how to set everything up, and still never getting anywhere near where I felt comfortable to be able to push really hard. So much so, that my 106, which has a terrible reputation for kicking up the rear end, due to its suspension system, feels like an armchair compared with the ZR, and there is no way that should be happening! Whats it on? Non adjustable Bilsteins, honed for the 106 from years of development!

If you do go for them, let us know how you get on.
 
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